• HiddenLayer555@lemmy.mlEnglish
    21·
    2 years ago

    🚫 Tax the rich and redistribute some of their wealth

    👉 Gulag the rich and redistribute all of their wealth

  • Dagwood222@lemm.ee
    215·
    2 years ago

    You do realize that ‘the means of production’ are all in China right now?

  • fakir@lemm.ee
    6·
    2 years ago

    Suppose we replace all capitalists with worker cooperatives. What happens when two worker cooperatives compete in free market? We’ll still be at capitalism, wont we?

      • fakir@lemm.ee
        3·
        2 years ago

        Thanks, Cowbee! It seems to me, that in practice (as opposed to theory, not game), if socialism is 5 steps away on the chessboard, then market socialism has to be step 1, simply because that’s where we are (1. markets aren’t going away tomorrow, and 2. everyone currently has to engage in the economy one way or another). It’s what is the ‘adjacent next’. Changing everyone’s minds all at once seems mathematically impossible. I guess what I’m trying to say is that it is possible that all our collective energies might be better spent focusing on just step 1.

          • fakir@lemm.ee
            2·
            2 years ago

            Thanks again!

            In other words, Market Socialism is nice in that it removes exploitation, but is no nearer to Communism than Capitalism. The leap to public ownership is no closer, just the relations of exploitation are removed. How do we get to Communism, and what role can worker cooperatives play in that? The solution is to perform a revolution and establish a Proletarian State. This is a hard requirement to begin with, otherwise you can’t simply accomplish Market Socialism, the bourgeoisie would never allow it.

            Right, so market socialism is better than capitalism, and I’m arguing it is easier to get there than revolution. I’m also kinda arguing that market socialism will naturally lead to everyone just donating their belongings to the greater good once everyone is content with what they get from market socialism, otherwise I see it impractical to simply snatch private assets for public ownership. Lastly, I agree it would seem like the bourgeoise would never allow it, but things like Linux and the fediverse exist and they’ll only get stronger and harder to beat with network effect.

              • fakir@lemm.ee
                2·
                2 years ago

                Revolution requires convincing 8 billion people of a possible utopia whereas market socialism exists right now to some degree - FOSS, cooperatives, credit unions etc. are all part of market socialism. 120 million Americans for example are part of credit unions - more than any big bank in America. If we connected all the credit unions so they could talk to each other, you could transact with any branch or ATM - it could rival any big bank. It is harder to convince someone to upend their life for revolution than to convince them the benefits of credit unions over regular banking (again, markets, or in this case banking exists, and we need to engage with it currently). As for donating, many donate to Wikipedia, fediverse etc. When we are not starving, we’ll donate it all to a good cause.

    • Spectre@lemmy.mlOP
      4·
      2 years ago

      Workers coops is still capitalism since it is still about maximizing profits for them. Socialism is when the means of productions are own for everyone through nationalization, and through a Marxist Leninist party.