They say debian is free and has its promise, but Arch has like 2-4 maintainers?
I’m honestly not sure if I’m witnessing the most autistic responses to the most obvious shitpost ever, or if the AI bots got into Lemmy already.
Why wouldn’t we? Lemmy has at least 12 real people.
I’m a real people, and I’m livid that I shouldn’t respond with a paragraph about Mint because this is obvious shitposting.
That’s right, you are a real people! You can tell you’re real because your eyes are real eyes.emoji . This was first discovered by the early 21st century philosopher — jayden smith.
So are you, Bruce. You’re also real, and don’t need to dress up in a rubber suit for attention. You’re good enough.
Two extremes here. Debian is slow to update while arch is bleeding edge.
I avoid containerized desktop apps (snap, flatpak) so I couldn’t run Debian as a daily driver. You’d want to use the latest FireFox and their repo’s release is old. You you can get it from flatpak, but I don’t want to do that. Running on recent (<1y) hardware will also be problematic. I guess you could keep on adding 3rd party repos to your install, though some post from debian forums always stuck with me: “Debian is only what is released + whats in the official repo. Install anything else and you’re not running debian anymore.”. Its a whacky OS and I love it, but daily drive it only on my server.
Arch puts everything on their repo straight away. And if its not there, you’re downloading code from AUR and building it yourself. I actually appreciate this since it complies with the philosophy that you can’t really trust your applications unless you read the source and build it yourself. Awesome, but the general public shouldn’t be doing this… I don’t mind applications being distributed in binary form. I am able to trust linux community maintained repositories. Arch is for the geeks imo.
I found Fedora to be a good middle ground, since it gets package updates straight away while still maintaining fixed OS releases. No need for snap or flatpaks since their repo has everything and is updated. Its also widely supported by software vendors (just like debian). Id go with it as a recommendation, but still note that its philosophy is free software only and this can potentially mean tinkering with additional stuff from RPM fusion, especially if you dance with nvidia and watch videos encoded with non free codecs.
It takes a bit of time to find the right distro and that is the biggest obstacle to linux imo.
I avoid containerized desktop apps (snap, flatpak) so I couldn’t run Debian as a daily driver.
Wat? this is the dumbest take of the day.
Feel free to chose either one, but avoiding Debian for this reason is just plain wrong.
It takes a bit of time to find the right distro and that is the biggest obstacle to linux imo.
It’s also the greatest benefit. Vanilla stuff works out of the box for most, but once you need more, there’s a paved runway headed in any direction you want to go (some in better shape than others to be fair).
Windows and OS X are certainly wider runways, but there are cliffs off the side of you want to change direction.
Good things usually take time, but you will know where you are when you get there.
Out of curiosity, why avoid Flatpak? I get snap or AppImage, but Flatpak is generally great.
Not parent poster, but this is a detailed explanation for the big ideas.
Wow, thanks for the link! I’m a huge Flatpak fan and always thought they were awesome. I still do, but a lot of the issues in that blog were news to me. Thanks for sharing, it was a really good read!
why avoid Flatpak? I get snap or AppImage,
Objectively, they all frustrate validation the same. When comparing with a SLSA3-compliant setup where every installed artifact has a signed checksum in a signed bundle from a signed resource on a signed repository, and the endpoint to this is readily available from something like authenticated SNMP into the single source of truth, they all tends to compare poorly.
The chart below completely ignores that Debs are consolidated into a single source of truth as well, and I feel violating SSoT should cost significantly because of dependency holes when artifact registry is incomplete, but SLSA doesn’t care about that part.
Ecosystem / Format Estimated SLSA Level Update Reliability / Model Trust Chain & Provenance Comments (withheld) 3–4 Very high; repo-based, transactional updates Strong: signed packages + signed repo metadata + central DB; distros enforce reproducible builds. OCI containers (hardened pipeline: cosign + Tekton/in-toto) 3 High if using automated CI/CD and policy enforcement Strong if you use signed images + non-falsifiable provenance; this is rare but achievable. DEB (distro repos) 2 High; repo-based, APT handles dependencies Medium: repo metadata signed, but per-package signatures not mandatory; weaker checksum chain. Flatpak runtimes (Flathub) 2 High; centralized runtimes, predictable updates Medium: signed OSTree commits; build infra more centralized, but not full end-to-end provenance. Flatpak apps 1–2 High; repo-based, automatic updates Mixed: OSTree signing helps, but build provenance varies by publisher; no uniform SLSA guarantees. Snap (strict confinement) 1–2 High; centralized store, auto-updates Centralized signing by Canonical, but opaque build pipelines; trust is “trust the store operator.” OCI containers (typical public images) 0–1 Medium; pull-latest model, tag drift common Usually unsigned; mutable tags; no guaranteed provenance—trust is mostly social and reputation-based. Snap (classic confinement) 1 High; same store/auto-update model Same store trust, but classic snaps bypass sandbox; even more reliance on publisher integrity. AppImage 0–1 Low–medium; ad-hoc self-update or manual downloads Almost no chain of custody; signatures optional; no central repo or provenance expectations. npm (JavaScript) 0–1 High frequency, but low reliability of safety; semver + lockfiles Registry accounts can publish arbitrary tarballs; no default signed provenance; transitive deps explode risk. PyPI / pip (Python) 0–1 Similar to npm; pip + requirements/lockfiles Tarballs/wheels from arbitrary maintainers; no mandatory signing; provenance work (e.g., PEP 740) is emerging but not standard. Composer / Packagist (PHP) 0–1 Good tooling, but same “trust the registry” model Packages pulled from Packagist/VCS; no mandatory signatures; dependency graph trust is social, not cryptographic. CPAN (Perl) 0–1 Mature ecosystem, but manual/legacy in many flows Historically minimal provenance; mirrors and authors are trusted by convention, not by SLSA-style attestations. Other language registries (RubyGems, crates.io, etc.) 0–1 Similar to npm/PyPI; lockfiles help reproducibility Central registries, but no default SLSA provenance; integrity is mostly TLS + registry operator trust. Man, I really need to check out “(withheld)”
Seriously though, nice table!
the table reads like AI output
Can have fast Debian with ceres [1] ~ er, I mean with sid. And experimental staging area even beyond that.
Can have slower more stable (~?) arch with manjaro.
While neither are gentoo, they (/ the community) have availed at least that much choice.
[1: that’s Devuan’s]
PS, speaking of
Its a whacky OS and I love it
look at this old wacky thing I love (and have been daily driving since).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuYMBCcgs98
Gets around those quandries of having to pick which one, like between bleeding edge rolling and LTS stable, or between arch and debian, or whatever other pair of otherwise seemingly mutually exclusive criteria that otherwise seem inescapable from compromise. Nope. No quandry. Can haz both. ;)
Shshsh. ;) Linux’s best kept secret. Hehe.
Not OP, but this is a fantastic answer, and I wish I’d read it before installing Deb on my wife and friend’s computers!
I use CachyOS, but decided “bleeding edge” would be more of a nuisance than help for them, so opted for “very stable”, then immediately ran into challenges trying to get apps, and needed to get containerized apps for everything. I should have gone with something Fedora-based or just stuck with what I know, CachyOS.
what apps did you need to install containerized?
Stremio was the big one, but maybe I just didn’t try hard enough.
Getting Wine/Bottles working with a niche work remote desktop streaming app was a huge pain, too, while in CachyOS it’s 1-click to get it all set up from the Hello app.
On my CachyOS desktop, I use Docker images for a couple things: my mesh wifi network controller server (Omada) and for ripping Kindle books to .epub with a specific Windows setup that still works (I need to read with TTS and Kindle broke native Android TTS when they implemented their own shitty TTS option, so I .epub everything.)
I don’t think I use any other containerized apps, aside from my work Windows VM (which is only required for SharePoint integration in Explorer.)
Stremio has a native Debian package right on it’s download page.
And as to all the other stuff, that is super specific and is hardly a reason to not recommend debian to a random person.
Plan9
I’ve been a Debian guy for a long time for one reason, stability. I don’t game a lot, but haven’t had an issue in years, my son uses arch and games way more than I do, but he also has to fix a lot more stuff that updates seem to break.
If you are under 30 I almost want to encourage Arch as you’ll be forced to learn a bit more over time and learning is never a bad thing. If you might game some, but value a rock solid system, go Debian.
Just get Cachyos its what I use and is super easy and based on Arch
try one for a week, switch to the other for a week, and if you feel like it, switch to any other whenever you want
If you know vaguely what you’re doing or are willing to learn, you can go with whatever and it’ll be fine.
Personally not a big fan of debian because they tend to be slower and more conservative on updates. Arch is a bit more technical, but very customizable.
I’m personally a big fan of Fedora. Software updated quickly enough to have all the bells and whistles, slow enough to not get cut by bleeding edge software.
Gentoo is where you learn the most about Linux and software in general.
Long time gentoo advocate(/fanboy) here, and so, it stings a little to say this, but, there are ways to use gentoo that do not have you learn as much about your system as, say, e.g. CRUX, KISS/Carbs, LFS(?), starting with just a busybox and kernel, Exherbo, or even many ways of using slackware [and several other suggestions yet, but gotta cut the list short somewhere].
Gentoo’s very conveniently wrapped up with portage. So conveniently, you can be forgiven for lingering in the convenience and not venturing deeper into what the convenience wraps around. It’s not a thick opaque plastic wrap like some distros that try hard to lower the entry bar, but it is still convenient. … Conveniently availing advanced fidelity of choice over what you’re installing, conveniently managing complexity in simplicity, but ultimately a convenience trap still none the less. … Many Gentoo users look like uneducated yokels in flying saucers, compared to those who actually do compile their software themselves (they run
make), rather than those who have emerge do it for them. [Or an even more extreme example, we’re like anyone using an LLM voice assistant.] As in: We’re not superior skilled savvy sysadmin, we just have better tools.And why do the effort of learning to become better, when the machine does it for you.
But then, with gentoo, you do still have the choice. Gentoo is all about choice.
One can try say same for any distro, and that’s true, for all being (mostly) Free Software (“Opensource”) and so can study (freedom1) it to whatever depth your curiosity takes you, but, Arch does try take some of your choice away from you, not the freedom to study it, but in that it insists it have the freedom to bite you. [ Though, there be ways to mitigate that ]. Debian (or Devuan), Gentoo, Suse, and others, let you opt-in to the fast lane. Arch seem to be screaming “COME WITH US, FAST AS WE CAN!!!” and leaving little room to hear anything about taking arch to a slow lane.
It was mostly sarcastic suggestion, but as you said, you can hit the ground running with Gentoo nowadays very quickly, and go back and revisit every part of it and play around with it, and learn about everything later.
I think it’s Ubuntu that’s slow, while Debian as its base is smaller and faster?
Your logic seems sound, yup.
Though broader than the issue you’re responding to, the bigger quality of note in Ubuntu, is not that it’s slow (nor larger), but instead, the most issue of ubuntu, is that they’re very very silly. More marketing silly than sensible development.
Better Ubuntu be slow than fast anyway. See what they do when they try go fast? Like replacing the userland with rust…
That’s beyond just “ready or not, here it comes” release model madness.
It’s silly.
No, Debian is typically quite a bit older than even the Ubuntu LTS. E.g. they currently still don’t ship a Nvidia driver that supports the 50 series GPUs.
Slower on updates, not slow to run. Slower on updates is referring to how it takes longer for new features / software to be shipped out for you to download. Debian usually prioritizes machines that chug along for a long time without anything breaking, rather than adding new stuff
You’re right that it’s not slow to run. It is small and fast
But fast on security updates when running on stable
Performance differences between distros tend to be negligible. Unless you have a specific use case and a distro specifically tuned for that, you will hardly notice any difference.
you will hardly notice any difference
until you leave linux, to assembly operating systems, like kolibrios.
Ubuntu is based off the testing version of Debian, so they have newer software versions
If you have to ask, you definitely don’t want Arch
I highly recommend Mint Cinnamon, especially if this is your first foray into Linux.
Debian is rock solid, there are even more user-friendly distros though. In a few edge-cases it will expect you to know your way around things, however there are a lot of guides for it. Going with this will cause the growth of a mighty white beard!
Arch Linux will make you cry. If you want to learn how to fix and configure things it’s great (and their wiki arguably is the greatest of all), but their lack of QA and expectation to do that yourself often causes issues. You’ll probably cut your fingers on its bleeding edge. If you want to learn with less bleeding I’d recommend CachyOS these days. I’m certainly not saying this because my computer didn’t boot after updates multiple times. /s
HOWEVER if you have an Nvidia GPU, first off: I’m so sorry. Secondly, you absolutely (!) should use a distro that takes care of their driver for you. Their drivers are hot steaming garbage that you do not want to meddle with (many distros try their best to do it for you, but often enough it won’t work for some people). See below, Nvidia distros marked with recycling symbol.
A few other options to consider with noticeable features:
- Bazzite (♻️): If you mainly play games. User-friendly, most compatible with handhelds next to CachyOS. Takes care of a lot of small things related to gaming.
- Fedora: If you want modern features on a very stable system. Very good ecosystem. Basically the other stable workhorse next to Debian. Will spawn a nice hat on your head, m’lady.
- OpenSuse: Also very stable, best distro for those concerned about US influence (it’s strongly EU-based). Tumbleweed arguably most stable rolling-release distro (newest system software) with a great graphical settings’ tool YaST (future unknown, unfortunately). Leap is rock-solid but slow, meant more for Office PCs and Enterprise users. After installing this you’ll suddenly start talking german.
- Linux Mint: If you want things to just work with the flattest learning curve possible for former Windows victims. Helpful tips for Ubuntu usually apply and that weird software offering you a manual download for Ubuntu will just work.
- ElementaryOS: Very good for users used to MacOS, probably flattest learning curve for them. Great accessibility! Not as feature rich as others (their whole desktop is made in-house, so it’s very cohesive but a lot of work for them), but what they have is very well tested.
- ZorinOS (Core): Also very good. Most likely the one with the biggest software selection from the start (comes with both Snap and Flatpak pre-configured). Probably the one you’d eventually find on some school computer.
And three others interesting if you might buy new hardware soon (damn, you rich):
- TuxedoOS (♻️): Default OS on devices from Tuxedo Computers (EU). Works on any machine and is a really nice distro in general.
- SlimbookOS (♻️): Default OS for Slimbook (EU) devices. Also nice.
- Pop_OS! (♻️): Default OS for System76 (US) devices. They’re currently developing a whole new desktop environment (Cosmic), so their normal release hangs a little bit behind. It’s okay though. Be aware it’s from a US company (not just maintainers, but commercial entity). Fucked up Linus Tech Tips once.
[Arch’s] wiki arguably is the greatest of all
100% agree. Even as a Fedora user, in the rare occasion I have some obscure issue the Arch wiki is a godsend. Even though I’ve never actually used Arch, I’m still extremely grateful for the work they do on documenting every little thing for desktop Linux. A lot of that info is applicable for all Linux desktop distros.
Yup. Arch’s wiki’s one of the two best things Arch has going for it.
Thankfully, don’t have to use Arch to make use of arch wiki.
Mint deals with nvidia just fine
I can tell you from experience that it’s not a given. Not because of Mint, but because of the driver. You’re just lucky that your hardware-driver-kernel combination happened to work flawlessly.
I will push back on this a bit because Debian is great, but point release distros like Debian that focus on stability can be incredibly behind on important updates that include features users will want. I personally recommend Fedora to start because imo it’s the best of both worlds for new penguins and greybeards alike.
This is such a fantastic answer. I wish stuff like this was the top search result for these questions.
I will note that perhaps Linux Mint should get a ♻️, since it comes with a very simple “Driver Manager” utility that detects your GPU and allows you to select the appropriate proprietary driver for it. The onboarding welcome program directs you to open it.
Edit: demo video: https://youtu.be/12FKdE0ZRc4
I only marked those who bundle the driver with the image since that way they can treat is as core system package and add the necessary deep system configurations + helper scripts straight form the start. There are in fact quite a few distros who use such a helper tool (I think Zorin has one too?), but even with their best effort the driver still causes issues so god damn often or just fails to install for weird reasons. Additionally there might be issues after updates. Distros that integrate them from the start might add a few extra scripts to mitigate update problems, perhaps ensure Secure Boot still works, make specific changes to Wayland due to Nvidia being really bad with it by default, set up everything for hybrid graphics, ecetera.
My brother just threw out an RTX 3060 because of all the issues (in that case on OpenSuse) and I had so. many. issues. In the last 10 years with all kinds of green GPUs that I can only in good conscious recommend distros with pre-installed drivers to Nvidia users, and to avoid that company like the Plague.
I didn’t game, but use Bazzite. It has worked on every system I’ve installed it on, even an old AMD A6. I just feel safe in there, but it’s not perfect. And the distro is large.
Debian Unstable, if you like to live dangerously and have to reboot every couple of years.
/s
I like that even without the “/s”
Why have you forsaken God? You should be praying in TempleOS.
Isn’t it true that a server running TempleOS has the best protection against remote exploits?
Yes, the networking stack is perfectly protected for it only connects directly to the heavens via faith based prayer-wave.
Most based opinion i’ve seem here
larp larp larp sahur ✌️
Debian is chosen for Satellites because it is “stable”, that is it doesn’t do major changes like changing the Kernel.
Arch isn’t for beginners, but it’s a rolling release distro that’s nice and simple but powerful.
Some have started with arch.
Not all beginners are alike.
… Some even started with LFS.
You do have the option though. I run LMDE7, and installed a 7.0-prempt kernel yesterday because I felt that I was seeing too much stuttering in 3d games. I installed it from my package manager which already had debian Backports turned on.
I feel like there are other options here. Fedora? OpenSUSE?
And a few more yet
Fedora is so, so nice. I have it on all my personal computers.
At my work they only tolerate Ubuntu. My God, it can be so frustrating. Snap gets in the way constantly. Somehow Ubuntu LTS seems to have a knack for precisely choosing the worst package versions for a workstation.
Fedora on the other hand just gets out of my way and lets me get shit done.
I am obligated to recommend Alamalinux at any and all opportunity
This
The fact that you’re asking this suggests you might be new to linux so go Mint but if it has to be one of those two then Debian
Linux Mint Debian Edition. Best of both worlds.
:3 I would have thought best of both worlds be more like: install Devuan, read everything on https://bedrocklinux.org/, run the script once knowing the implications of running it and are enthused for this nontrivial change of your system, and then just
brl fetch arch. Or other way around if you prefer arch’s installer. Or Debian/Devuan, Arch/Artix(/Obarun/Joborun/etc) if preferring init freedom.Edit: … cos then you can do cool things like
apt upgrade && pacman -SyuThe lack of PPA support might bite you though. For newcomers I’d strongly recommend staying with the standard Mint (Cinnamon) version, any reason not to is highly technical and more of an issue for the maintainers.
