Rule of law is obviously sympathetic to Hamas.
*The soldiers accused of carrying out the attack gave a press conference outside the Supreme Court on Sunday, wearing black balaclavas to avoid identification.
The group said they could not receive a fair trial because of the leaked video, and were victims of an unfair “drumhead court-martial”.*
The video of us doing horrendous shit is extremely hurtful to our defense!
While I agree they are unlikely to get a fair trial
- They don’t deserve fairness
- If this wasn’t leaked, they would go un-judged, which is the opposite end of that sliding scale they are complaining about by being outed as torturers.
I do wonder how much of it was “following orders” and how much was pure bloodlust. Neither excuses this, but the former would be indicative of bigger evil up the chain of command.
Everyone deserves a fair trial. If Israel cannot provide one then perhaps The Hague or Palestine can assist them in getting a fair trial.
A very reasonable and sensible perspective, but what if that’s still not going to be a fair trial either? We all have pretty strong opinions about torture, so I think we may need to go the extra mile in this case. If no unbiased jury can be found anywhere on planet Earth, then we’ll have to send them to Mars for a fair trial instead. It doesn’t even have to be elaborate, we can use the rules of the good old fashioned “trial by ordeal”. If you can survive on Mars, that demonstrates you were innocent all along and you can come right back home. Otherwise this is going to get dragged out for years and years while they dig up even more evidence and who knows what else may get discovered. This is really the best option for everyone. All aboard to Mars.
following orders
Now what does that remind of…
Every military ever.
The concept that a soldier is able to disobey an illegal order is flawed. The first thing that happens to them is being thrown in jail awaiting court martial. It’s then on them to prove the order illegal be ause the presumption is that it was legal. It becomes one person against the whole military apparatus.
The penalty if found guilty of refusing to obey orders? At minimum (in the US) a dishonorable discharge. At most a room on death row.
I still think soldier should refuse illegal orders, but the system is setup so they don’t.
I for one am 100% done with giving soldiers any grace on these matters.
Well we just have to make sure the consequences for obeying orders to commit war crimes are worse than what their superiors can dish out for disobeying those orders.
You should update your minimum. In the US military It’s actually an NJP to start. You can request court martial if desired and it goes from there.
Dishonorable discharge is very rare and you’re likely to end up with an OTH or BCD if the “infraction” is significant. I’d rather have some jail time than shoot civilians tbh.Not even an NJP if you’re a Nuke. I’ve told admirals to their face that I wasn’t going to break the book to follow their stupid orders. I realize we are the prima donnas of the military though, and I wasn’t just a Nuke.
What is a Nuke?
It’s someone who works on a nuclear powered ship. You have to take extra tests to get on a nuke and they only allow the smartest ASVAB scores to take the test.
Navy Nuclear Power Program Member
The US has no draft, they choose to join, so they can go fuck themselves.
Assassins paid with taxpayer money, that’s all they are.Israel does. Compulsory service.
They’re not that dissimilar, both indoctrinate exceptionalism and fascism into their kids from an early age, the difference being that usonians go overseas to liberate other people of their oil, whereas israelis have war zones (they create) geographically close, so a bit of incentive is required for them to join the meat grinder. Not much though.
You always have a choice.
This is what happens with Fascist thugs. American citizens in the US are getting shot in the back by ICE and beaten. People are dissappearing or held in detention with no camera footage to leak. Same shit, different continent.
Both equally idf terrorists like to terrorize paleatinins rape and torture them following Israel leaders policies
Everyone deserves a fair trial ffs. That’s how you prevent innocent people being thrown in jail.
how much was pure bloodlust.
90%, they’re bred like that since they were born.
“How are we supposed to defend ourselves if you have all that evidence against us? It isn’t fair!”
it is shaken them to the core that someone leaked it. not because someone did it.
The most fucked up part about this story is that hundreds of Israeli fascists literally stormed the military base the perpetrators were being imprisoned — committing domestic terrorism — in defence of the war criminals, demanding their release.
Israel is a fascist state because its founders spent the last century propagandising its citizens and the entire Jewish diaspora. It’s not a surprise the Israeli majority think Palestinians are sub-human and their extermination is justified; that will not change for generations, and only after Israel is globally shunned, militarily neutered, required to return to its original borders, and pay to rebuild all of Palestines infrastructure.
Unfortunately, it’s not just an Israeli thing. There’s lots of Zionists in NA who say things like ‘the Palestinians don’t even know how to farm’…
They don’t like it when you point out that Israel stole the more fertile areas
And all the stolen land projects on the west bank are strategically built to close up water access
They’re useless people. Look how much change Israel has accomplished in the last 60 years! They created a large economy, industrialized, created so many farms and made the land productive. None of the Arab states want to take all the Palestinians, which shows you what they really think. And the Palestinians are terrorists too.
I just can’t even with people sometimes.
I watch this guy on YouTube who is Palestinian and talks to Israeli, last guy said he advocates for the murder of children because of October 7
JFC. I’m trying to imagine someone saying this, like what could be going through their head. I just can’t.
He just kept saying all Palestinians are evil and when he was a truck driver for the IDF he wishes he got a chance to kill Palestinians, while simultaneously saying it’s not a genocide.
The fascist mental illness on full display.
I dont think it has shocked israel. And even if it has, I am sure not for torture but for leaking.
The torture video shaking Israel to its core because it leaked not because of the event happening. The leak is perceived as treason by the majority of Israel and they are fine with the tortures…
“Showing video of our actions is blood libel”
Why does this type of bald faced deflection still work enough that they can keep doing it
Jews who defend Israel’s Gaza Genocide are doing more to spread anti-Semitism than anything since WWII.
because it’s geopolitically convenient
Blood libel or ritual murder libel is an antisemitic canard which falsely accuses Jews of murdering Christians in order to use their blood in the performance of religious rituals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel
The fuck? Nobody was making any kind of claim like that. Why did he bring it up?
It’s the “fake news” of the right wing Zionist politicos.
Deflection to be used to say this is more antisemitism to his base
It’s absolutely shameless, they don’t care how transparent their accusations are.
Shaken to the core
I doubt it.
Shaken that the world is seeing it and judging them, not that it happened.
Don’t forget that IDF soldiers executed Gazan ambulance workers after tying them up and hid the bodies and then denied the whole thing
They’ve been executing kids for throwing rocks at tanks for decades.
My understanding the media focus is about how bad it is that this was leaked and that the leakers are bad because it hurts the state of Israel.
Which is exactly what I would expect.
My interpretation:
- Netanyahu has already secured political control of Shin Bet (secret police) by swapping its director
- he wants full control of the IDF, but some people haven’t been willing to swear personal loyalty
- most likely, the general advocate was one
- those people are now removed, one by one, with various methods
As a result, the culture of impunity can continue.
The general advocate who was jailed - she was the person who received, among other documents (likely thousands of documents), the recommendations of the IDF internal investigators about the Rafah ambulance massacre (killing of 15 paramedics and destruction of 5 vehicles).
The IDF recommended to do nothing, claiming that they did nothing particularly wrong, just made some mistakes (executed 15 unarmed medics, some at close range with their hands bound, and tried to conceal the deed).
I don’t know what she would have done, but my reading of the background and signals suggests she might have recommended criminal charges. That would have made her removal absolutely vital for the Netanyahu regime.
Tomer-Yerushalmi appeared to be a model servant of the state. Only the second woman to rise to the position, in 2021, she was appointed chief military advocate – effectively the IDF’s top lawyer.
She was shaping up to be such a good little war criminal, but she just had go and develop a moral compass…
The country was also still in the grip of profound shock and, for many citizens, fury at the October 7 massacre, with extremely limited concern for the treatment of detained Palestinians.
Such a way with words. “extremely limited concern for the treatment of detained Palestinians” is a very pretty way to say “thirsting for the blood of innocent civilians”
October 7 massacre
vs
detained Palestinians
Completely ignoring the starved, bombed, and shot ones not in detention (they are dead)
I’ve let myself watch just one short video of atrocities committed by Israel in the last couple years and I still think about it and choke up thinking about it daily. Just one of many like it.
I am not the strongest person emotionally despite a really tough exterior, I have seen a lot of death and been through some shit. So to think about what’s been happening there all day, every day, to families and children, it’s too much to process. I have to advocate in a completely detached frame or I will be unable to form a cognitive thought.
That’s OK. You’re doing the best you can. Try to go easy on yourself.
The level of suffering people all over the world go through on a daily basis in unimaginable and we’re not capable of caring about it in depth and still functioning. Best you can do is be aware it exists and keep a wall up, only lowering it on occasions where you might be able to help. The fact that you care at all shows you’re not a MAGA monster.
The fact that you care at all shows you’re not a MAGA monster.
It’s wild because I was raised conservative and was one until I left the family compound (let that one sink in) and it was reading, learning and experiencing human life that turned me around pretty fast. I saw science being ignored, I saw heartlessness, I saw them fabricate justification to start a war, and one particular night I saw FOX news play a live feed of a US humvee entering Baghdad shred a civilian truck to pieces with a grenade launcher for no reason, and they were playing patriotic music and had American flags all over the graphics and I got really sick and never watched FOX news again.
I’m so glad you got away from that. It’s hard to not completely succumb to misanthropy sometimes and stories like yours remind me that there’s some hope.
This is just nation level virtue signaling, the Israelis do not give a single shit about the Palestinians.
And it’s just going to get worse. The Israelis are going to eradicate the Gazans and then a few years later they’re going to be crying over how guilty they feel. Not guilty enough to repatriate the Palestinians mind you, it will instead be about helping the Palestinians where they’re now refugees. Israel is liberal Elmo, the state.
they’re going to be crying over how guilty they feel.
No they won’t.
one of their ministers is publicly bragging about treating prisoners like shit and humiliating them, jails have posters of gaza in rumbles with the caption “the new gaza”
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/-LvbfPaST-c
Shout out to the future terrorist attacks fueled by the abuse these Israeli’s put these people through. You asked for this by treating people like animals. Just like I told my buddies in Iraq and Afghanistan. Kill a non-combatant and create 20 new combatants.
All to justify the continued genocide.
disgusting… do they think they can match the usa for atrocities, we got that shit on lock. amateurs.
omfg i hate this world
I’m guessing “shaking Israel to its core” is hyperbole.
Yes. This just shows they’ve taken the mask off.
Back in July, Israeli protestors stormed the IDF military bases in order to free the abusers. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c2q07kd3ld6o
Then you have no idea how unpopular Bibi and his genocide is…
Like, he hasn’t stopped elections for years because he’s afraid he’ll win too much, the next election him and his cronies are out of power.
They’re supposed to be every year, last was 2022 right before the attack IDF was somehow unaware of despite having the best surveillance network in the world…
Like, it’s kind of a big coincidence that happened right before Bibi was going to get voted out, and it’s been an excuse to keep him in office another 4 years
Voted out? Wasn’t he about to be removed from office to be sentenced for financial crimes just before the war started?
Yes he should have been in prison just like trump
If I understand correctly the real issue isn’t that he would d significant time but rather that Bibi could have no involvement in politics after release.
how unpopular Bibi and his genocide is…
Netanyahu would likely get voted out because of his mishandling and killing of hostages and his corruption but the genocide itself still enjoys widespread popularity in israeli. If there was an election, a slightly different right wing zealot would likely win.
Hasn’t been true for months… (Actually probably well over a year by now…)
Sixty-nine percent of Israelis support ending the war in exchange for a deal that releases all remaining hostages in Gaza, compared to 21% who oppose such a trade, according to a poll aired by Channel 12 Friday.
That was like 8 months ago, but pretty sure it was much earlier
That seems to me to be about hostages, rather than the genocide.
One in five still think killing palestinians is more important than saving the lives of hostages, but that doesn’t mean all of the other four in five oppose having killed all those palestinians.
People are upset about netanyahu prolonging the war and killing hostages for the sake of his career, but that’s not the same thing as opposing genocide.
Give me a minute to read all the sources and polling numbers you just provided…
I’m just pointing out that poll doesn’t support your argument. Prioritizing hostages is just not the same as opposing genocide.
From 5 months ago: 82% want to expell all palestinians in gaza and 47% want to kill every man woman and child
From june: 64% believe they are no innocents in gaza, which justifies killing even children.
So…
but the genocide itself still enjoys widespread popularity in israeli
You admit you were wrong?
Glad to hear!
https://www.israeltoday.co.il/read/poll-strong-majority-of-israelis-back-idf-push-into-gaza-city/
"As international commentators wring their hands over the war in Gaza, Israelis themselves are clear: the battle is not over, and it must be won.
A new poll released Wednesday night shows a striking 65% majority of Israelis support the capture of Gaza City and the central refugee camps—still largely under Hamas control—compared to 32% opposed. Just 3% said they had no opinion."
I don’t think someone can be this ignorant so I will just assume you’re a shill.
Right. So they’re already:
wildly unpopular
impossible to vote out
What does this incident do to change that? Nothing
I mean…
I feel like I’m going to have to explain everything about Israel’s government for you to even have a chance of understanding this…
Do you even know how the dissolution of a Knesset works?
If not, don’t you think you should learn how it works instead of making assumptions?
Thatisn’t the contradiction you think it is ifyou understand parliamentary systems.
Any possible relevant comment I want to make violates site policy. They are the 21st century Nazis.
Death, death, to the IDF!
That’s rather impressive for Lemmy. I’ve seen open calls for violent actions stick around and not get banned on this platform. Might have been a different instance than .world though.
The Nazis were German fascists who thought the Jewish population was inhibiting their destiny of creating a master race. Israel does not maintain any of these views so while they are Israeli fascists they are not Nazis.
Pedant gonna pedant.
Nah, it’s messed up to make direct comparisons between Nazis and Jewish people, Roma people or any other ethnicity that was targeted for elimination by Nazis.
It isn’t pedantry as much as it is anti-racism.
A person bullied can still be a bully. A person that was horrifically abused can still be an abuser.
The Israelis in power are now ethnic cleansing Palestinians. Being Jewish or not doesn’t even factor into the equation.
Ok buddy but nothing you write changes what “Nazi” means. Nazis are German fascists. Israeli fascists are not German fascists so they cannot be Nazis.
Slightly incorrect. Anyone identifying with Nazi ideology is a Nazi. There are genuine American Neonazis for example.
The fact you call them “Neo-Nazis” makes it clear there is a difference.
Do you think maybe that the person who originally made that comment knows this? Everyone else knew what they were saying, and I’m pretty sure you did too.
I think the dipshit who made this claim is not any more intelligent or informed than the dipshits that agree with it. The only real question at hand is how much of this comparison is just racism masking itself as something based around morality.
It’s not messed up to make valid comparisons
That’s not a valid comparison. It is vaguely racist though.
Sure thing, bud.
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd1c-_56yYGTJNit_GjUB-th5C8M4SKapOibN8vsmicakWNCA/viewform
https://zionism.wtf/ was a better “Zionist or Nazi Quote” quiz IMO but it doesn’t seem to load properly anymore.
And that is still irrelevant.
