What Linux users can do to help increase the adoption of their chosen desktop operating system.If you are interested in Linux, the first episode in my "Linux...
I have just started trying to use Linux and I find it very hard to actually recommend it to anyone. And the problem isn’t really anything mentioned in the video, it’s just that the UX is not great. You have to google so much to get things working and the answers are almost always typing some cryptic stuff into the terminal. I am technically minded enough to get by but Linux ends up feeling more like a hobby to me rather than something I can actually get work done in.
That said, I really like Linux and am gonna stick with it. I just don’t don’t see it being widely adopted until it becomes a bit more straight forward.
I have the same issue with Windows. I’ve been using Linux since I got my first PC. Trying to navigate Windows is a pain in the ass. It’s just old programs somehow put together. When I find some solutions online it’s often opening who knows what via Windows+R or better yet, changing something I have no idea about in regedit.
And even the most basic things are hidden away by many steps.
I feel you, I’m sure a lot of it comes down to familiarity. I just very recently did a fresh reinstall of windows and endeavour in a dual boot. And honestly the Calamares installer is a lot nicer than the windows one. But doing simple things like just writing to a secondary hard drive is a non-issue in windows whereas in Linux it was a whole learning adventure.
But doing simple things like just writing to a secondary hard drive is a non-issue in windows whereas in Linux it was a whole learning adventure.
What do you mean by that? Are you talking about RAID, having some partitions on separate drive or something else? Because if you mean just using secondary drive for files that’s just as easy as on Windows with most distributions.
Or did you mean installing programs to secondary drive? Yeah… I have no idea how that can be done. By a quick 4 minute search it seems… that it’s a problem.
So yeah, I can see a problem here. So many computers have something like 128GB SSD + 1TB HDD.
No, just a secondary hard drive. I use it for Windows and Linux so it’s ntfs. I was just trying to save a file to it but it said I didn’t have access, turns out I needed to specify ntfs-3g in the fstab file before I could write to it.
NTFS is proprietary FS that works on Linux thanks to great reverse-engineering efforts. To make this more fair, try accessing ext4 partition from Windows. Oh, it can’t even recognize it. Except that ext4 is open-source, so it wouldn’t even require reverse-engineering.
That said, have you fully shutdown Windows? You generally get write access out of the box nowadays, but only if Windows is fully shutdown. And clicking “Shut down” does not properly shut it down unless you disable fast startup.
Another method is to choose a “Restart” in Windows, and then instead of continuing with the restart, choose Linux on bootloader screen after you get there.
I’m mostly just speaking to the process. I can right click and mount the drive without a problem, but there’s no way to auto mount it on startup without editing the fstab file and finding the uuid of the drive through the terminal (at least as far as I could tell) all of the functionality is there, which is rather laudable, but the process is unapproachable for a lot of people.
O and yea, I did have to disable some fast startup setting in windows to get the write access, I forgot about that. But yeah, that one’s on Windows.
edit: sorry, this was actually pretty irrelevant to what I actually said, which was just about the write access which you pointed out was a windows issue. I got mixed up with my replies.
but there’s no way to auto mount it on startup without editing the fstab file and finding the uuid of the drive through the terminal (at least as far as I could tell) all of the functionality is there, which is rather laudable, but the process is unapproachable for a lot of people.
I haven’t tested it, but gnome-disks (pre-installed in e.g.: Ubuntu and Linux Mint) does have that option:
ntfs is a windows filesystem, so you’d have the same problem in windows if you used a linux filesystem that isn’t supported out of the box by the windows os.
I have tried quite a few now. Fedora, Mint, Debian - none could detect my wifi card so I had to go do a bunch of googling to try and get them working, found what driver I needed but was never able to actually find out how to install it, other than some terminal commands in forums that didn’t end up working. I stuck with Endeavour OS because it detected it without any problems.
I have a keyboard that I configure with an online tool called via that requires something called hid. On windows it just works but on Endeavour I have to enable something through the terminal.
I have a shared data drive and in order to make it mount when I start the computer I had to go and edit some fstab file?
I couldn’t even figure out how to install a dual boot with with fedora and mint because it asked me about the root and home and swap and boot partitions and didn’t explain how to set any of them up or what they did.
I needed a program for work that wasn’t on a repository and I had to google howw to launch an .sh file because clicking doesn’t work haha. Also through the terminal.
I’m not saying these are crazy insurmountable problems, and windows definitely has some similar things, getting my tablet working was so much smoother on Linux for example. But I’ve had to learn so much more about how my computer works to actually use Linux and I’m just not sure the majority of people will have that patience.
I agree linux can be very difficult but easy as well if you do not have “exotic” needs. If more people were using linux, especially more non techies, a lot would change but we’ll get there just slowly.
to respond to your points
I initially thiught you meant that you had to use commands in order to tinker with the UI - that’s my bad!
Wifi card, drivers, etc. can be a real pain. That’s neither linux or your fault. It’s just that noone prior to you wanted to use it and that’s why it wasn’t yet supported. Most systems are just plug and play. - compare it to macos, and you’ll find that linux is easy to install on most systems.
Auto mount is done using fstab right. Yoz xna also auto mount from the file explorer of the disk utility, it always depends on the system. There are a lot of different things and it’s not perfect.
Dual booting is in my opinion something for advanced people. I have no idea why anyone would ever suggest it to a newcomer! It’s pain in the ass if you deviate from the standard protocol.
Xou can double click on a shell script (.sh) by chmod +x file.sh or > right click > properties > exe as program
O no, tinkering with the ui is a delight, especially when compared to windows! I love the amount of customisation you get.
And yeah, dual booting can be a pain, I had to learn a lot more than I thought I did to get everything setup reasonably, unfortunately it’s also kind of a requirement for a lot of people who are thinking of swapping but need to give it a test drive first. I would have had a lot less issues without a dual boot, but I also need my computer for work so can’t really go all in until I’m sure I can do everything I need first.
Also yes I agree, I am really excited for the future of Linux, even just having been using it and reading and watching Linux content for a short time I can already sense it’s moving in a good direction. Very excited for wayland, not having different resolution scaling on different screens is another nitpick.
The first time I installed linux, I dual booted and never used linux because i just knew windows. The VM “Boxes” is incredibly easy to use. There’s barely any reason to boot windows on metal :D
Same sized screens for the win 😄
I use paperwm, no idea if I could even handle two screens with it 😅
I wholeheartedly agree with you in regards to general lack in UX quality and lack of introduction for new users.
I have mived to use Linux exclusively for about 5 years now and whenever a teammember at work tries it, I have to give advice about once a day because of some cryptic info that has accumulated in my head and they couldn’t find through a 20minute internet search, to solve an endless stream of tiny issues.
It is an OS that I definitely could never recommend to people like my parents, which are by no means tech illiterate.
In regards to the specific point of launching .sh files:
On KDE Plasma I can double click sh files and a popup shows asking me whether I want to execute the program or edit the file in a text editor.
o, that’s weird, this one might actually just be user error then, haha. I’ll have to try again as I’m also using plasma.
I actually think it might be better for less tech literate people in some cases. Supposing it’s pre installed or they have someone to set things up for them. If you’re just using it to browse the web or write some documents the general experience is pretty good. It’s only when you start trying to do a bit more with it that things get complicated.
I have just started trying to use Linux and I find it very hard to actually recommend it to anyone. And the problem isn’t really anything mentioned in the video, it’s just that the UX is not great. You have to google so much to get things working and the answers are almost always typing some cryptic stuff into the terminal. I am technically minded enough to get by but Linux ends up feeling more like a hobby to me rather than something I can actually get work done in.
That said, I really like Linux and am gonna stick with it. I just don’t don’t see it being widely adopted until it becomes a bit more straight forward.
Which distro and DE are we talking about?
I have the same issue with Windows. I’ve been using Linux since I got my first PC. Trying to navigate Windows is a pain in the ass. It’s just old programs somehow put together. When I find some solutions online it’s often opening who knows what via Windows+R or better yet, changing something I have no idea about in regedit.
And even the most basic things are hidden away by many steps.
I feel you, I’m sure a lot of it comes down to familiarity. I just very recently did a fresh reinstall of windows and endeavour in a dual boot. And honestly the Calamares installer is a lot nicer than the windows one. But doing simple things like just writing to a secondary hard drive is a non-issue in windows whereas in Linux it was a whole learning adventure.
What do you mean by that? Are you talking about RAID, having some partitions on separate drive or something else? Because if you mean just using secondary drive for files that’s just as easy as on Windows with most distributions.
Or did you mean installing programs to secondary drive? Yeah… I have no idea how that can be done. By a quick 4 minute search it seems… that it’s a problem.
So yeah, I can see a problem here. So many computers have something like 128GB SSD + 1TB HDD.
No, just a secondary hard drive. I use it for Windows and Linux so it’s ntfs. I was just trying to save a file to it but it said I didn’t have access, turns out I needed to specify ntfs-3g in the fstab file before I could write to it.
NTFS is proprietary FS that works on Linux thanks to great reverse-engineering efforts. To make this more fair, try accessing ext4 partition from Windows. Oh, it can’t even recognize it. Except that ext4 is open-source, so it wouldn’t even require reverse-engineering.
That said, have you fully shutdown Windows? You generally get write access out of the box nowadays, but only if Windows is fully shutdown. And clicking “Shut down” does not properly shut it down unless you disable fast startup.
Another method is to choose a “Restart” in Windows, and then instead of continuing with the restart, choose Linux on bootloader screen after you get there.
I’m mostly just speaking to the process. I can right click and mount the drive without a problem, but there’s no way to auto mount it on startup without editing the fstab file and finding the uuid of the drive through the terminal (at least as far as I could tell) all of the functionality is there, which is rather laudable, but the process is unapproachable for a lot of people.
O and yea, I did have to disable some fast startup setting in windows to get the write access, I forgot about that. But yeah, that one’s on Windows.
edit: sorry, this was actually pretty irrelevant to what I actually said, which was just about the write access which you pointed out was a windows issue. I got mixed up with my replies.
I haven’t tested it, but gnome-disks (pre-installed in e.g.: Ubuntu and Linux Mint) does have that option:
ahh, that’s good to know, thanks.
ntfs is a windows filesystem, so you’d have the same problem in windows if you used a linux filesystem that isn’t supported out of the box by the windows os.
Beginners usually do not have to do anything in terminal to adjust the system. Which desktop environment?
There isn’t one united linux user frontend - would be cool if you’d state which one is not great.
I assume you talk about gsetting commands?
I have tried quite a few now. Fedora, Mint, Debian - none could detect my wifi card so I had to go do a bunch of googling to try and get them working, found what driver I needed but was never able to actually find out how to install it, other than some terminal commands in forums that didn’t end up working. I stuck with Endeavour OS because it detected it without any problems.
I have a keyboard that I configure with an online tool called via that requires something called hid. On windows it just works but on Endeavour I have to enable something through the terminal.
I have a shared data drive and in order to make it mount when I start the computer I had to go and edit some fstab file?
I couldn’t even figure out how to install a dual boot with with fedora and mint because it asked me about the root and home and swap and boot partitions and didn’t explain how to set any of them up or what they did.
I needed a program for work that wasn’t on a repository and I had to google howw to launch an .sh file because clicking doesn’t work haha. Also through the terminal.
I’m not saying these are crazy insurmountable problems, and windows definitely has some similar things, getting my tablet working was so much smoother on Linux for example. But I’ve had to learn so much more about how my computer works to actually use Linux and I’m just not sure the majority of people will have that patience.
I agree linux can be very difficult but easy as well if you do not have “exotic” needs. If more people were using linux, especially more non techies, a lot would change but we’ll get there just slowly.
to respond to your points
I initially thiught you meant that you had to use commands in order to tinker with the UI - that’s my bad!
Wifi card, drivers, etc. can be a real pain. That’s neither linux or your fault. It’s just that noone prior to you wanted to use it and that’s why it wasn’t yet supported. Most systems are just plug and play. - compare it to macos, and you’ll find that linux is easy to install on most systems.
Auto mount is done using fstab right. Yoz xna also auto mount from the file explorer of the disk utility, it always depends on the system. There are a lot of different things and it’s not perfect.
Dual booting is in my opinion something for advanced people. I have no idea why anyone would ever suggest it to a newcomer! It’s pain in the ass if you deviate from the standard protocol.
Xou can double click on a shell script (.sh) by
chmod +x file.shor > right click > properties > exe as programO no, tinkering with the ui is a delight, especially when compared to windows! I love the amount of customisation you get.
And yeah, dual booting can be a pain, I had to learn a lot more than I thought I did to get everything setup reasonably, unfortunately it’s also kind of a requirement for a lot of people who are thinking of swapping but need to give it a test drive first. I would have had a lot less issues without a dual boot, but I also need my computer for work so can’t really go all in until I’m sure I can do everything I need first.
Also yes I agree, I am really excited for the future of Linux, even just having been using it and reading and watching Linux content for a short time I can already sense it’s moving in a good direction. Very excited for wayland, not having different resolution scaling on different screens is another nitpick.
Virtual machines are incredibly useful for this.
The first time I installed linux, I dual booted and never used linux because i just knew windows. The VM “Boxes” is incredibly easy to use. There’s barely any reason to boot windows on metal :D
Same sized screens for the win 😄
I use paperwm, no idea if I could even handle two screens with it 😅
deleted by creator
Wrong thread level
I wholeheartedly agree with you in regards to general lack in UX quality and lack of introduction for new users.
I have mived to use Linux exclusively for about 5 years now and whenever a teammember at work tries it, I have to give advice about once a day because of some cryptic info that has accumulated in my head and they couldn’t find through a 20minute internet search, to solve an endless stream of tiny issues.
It is an OS that I definitely could never recommend to people like my parents, which are by no means tech illiterate.
In regards to the specific point of launching .sh files:
On KDE Plasma I can double click sh files and a popup shows asking me whether I want to execute the program or edit the file in a text editor.
o, that’s weird, this one might actually just be user error then, haha. I’ll have to try again as I’m also using plasma.
I actually think it might be better for less tech literate people in some cases. Supposing it’s pre installed or they have someone to set things up for them. If you’re just using it to browse the web or write some documents the general experience is pretty good. It’s only when you start trying to do a bit more with it that things get complicated.
My father for example needs to digitally sign PDFs. And I mean properly, so that they becomes unchangable.
I wouldn’t say that this is a techy usecase, it is a rather frequent need for any adult in my country.
On windows it is so easy to set up while on Linux there is no solution at all.
So yeah, just browsing sadly wouldn’t cut it.