I would just like to share a story, and probably an opinion as well. When I was doing my STEM undergraduate degree a couple of years ago, I took a course in which I had to use MATLAB. I won’t disclose too much information, but it was a course involving computation.
Well, we (the students) weren’t given a student/institutional license of any sort, but the course coordinator still insisted on using MATLAB. We took it as an implicit instruction to “somehow” obtain MATLAB. In the end, one guy in our class pirated it and distributed it the whole class.
Before that though, I did approach my course coordinator, asking them if it’s possible to use other software like GNU Octave, which is a clone of MATLAB. Personally I think it should also possible to use any other programming language like Python for example, since the important part is the computation part, in my opinion. They refused any discussion and did not even consider alternatives, instead basically forcing us to “obtain” MATLAB. How else? Well.
As I have said, we all pirated it in the end.
I did something quite interesting though, which is that for every quiz, assignment, and projects that we had, I’ll run the same exact MATLAB code on GNU Octave, to see if it’s compatible. And it is. It works flawlessly. There’s only one function that GNU Octave didn’t support back the (this was a couple of years ago), and even then, it wasn’t an essential feature, you could use other software for that function as well.
By the end of that semester, I had compiled almost all input/output of the MATLAB code alongside its GNU Octave’s counterpart, to demonstrate that we didn’t need to pirate MATLAB to get through this undergraduate course.
Regrettably though, I didn’t follow through. So sad!
Do you think piracy is justified in this case?
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What do you say to people whose position is “you are stealing their work; nothing is free”?
You already pointed out that there is a free alternative, so anyone who says “nothing is free” is a bit mentally challenged.
Yea of course but we’re talking about piracy, so when we pirate proprietary software, they’ll of object with “nothing is free, you gotta pay”. It’s either we pay for that, or fundamentally uphold piracy as some means or some ends, or use and support open-source software. Not a lot of choices, really.
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I think I get that as well. I used to talk quite a bit about open-source to my friends, but looking back, it seemed quite preachy (maybe because I was quite young at the time), and it never really changed anything. This is especially the case since open-source (or free software) is a philosophical approach to technology that many people might be unfamiliar with or simply don’t care about. I just simply use open-source software, supports devs/foundations, and only will talk the necessary bits if someone asks me about it.
Umm actually, lots of things are free. Those who did the work got paid a salary anyway.
Paying for things these days does not grant ownership either way.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=DEP_7_gx6M8&
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
not blaming op but the institution should provide licenses to the students or propose free alternatives if they exist
From a quick search, a MATLAB student license is $50 (USD, probably), which is less than most textbooks but still not nothing. Whether piracy is justified or not, I just want to point out that this is how they get you. Microsoft gives cheap Office licenses to schools and Adobe turns a blind eye to amateur piracy of Photoshop because they know that getting you comfortable with their software early means you’re more likely to pay to keep using it professionally later. I don’t know if MathWorks had a hand in the MATLAB requirement (I would bet it was just a prof who wants to stick with what they know), but good on you for trying to push for alternatives and testing against Octave.
Thanks for this, I will look at deploying Octave on our systems alongside MATLAB. I was unaware they were the same/similar package (I don’t use the software, only deploy it) and had never been asked for it.
For differences, see: https://wiki.octave.org/Differences_between_Octave_and_Matlab
There’s a reason why they insist that you all get MATLAB, and it’s because of compatibility. Like you’ve mentioned in your story, there’s one function that wasn’t working on Octave. If they don’t standardise and let every student decide themselves which software they want to use, every different software will probably have different incompatibility and different functions will be broken on different software and a lot of resources would need to be spent on debugging for all the different softwares out there.
There’s no reason that standard should be MATLAB though.
IMO the benefit of making MATLAB the standard is that it’s tried, tested and can be verified my many other institutions. It is however a dick move for the institute to not provide access to the software they standardise on, even if it’s remotely used.
I agree with that. It’s much easier streamlining software choice rather than letting people choose their own alternatives, since it’s a mess to integrate workflows and all that.
My issue is that we’re basically forced to pirate for an introductory course, where I actually don’t even think it’s necessary to use MATLAB. You can use GNU Octave or even Python. It’s quite frustrating.
Not from the US am from Ecuador . In my numerical analysis class my professor showd us how to pirate mathlab the first class and gave us a bunch of pdfs so we wouldn’t have to buy any books. I already had my bf’s uni’s licence so i didn’t do that but I did dabble with octave a bit on my Linux laptop. Piracy is so widespread in public universities here that nobody thinks about it as being wrong. Personally I always believe that piracy is the tool for the democratization of knowledge. I wouldn’t know half of the stuff I know if it wasn’t for pirated books. It’s literally the reason a lot of us in south America can scape poverty.
Based eastern European professors do the same. Doubly hilarious because there was some freshman who was afraid of being kicked out of he were to be caught pirating by probably the same professor who showed the art of pirating for those who don’t know how.
I showed the professor how to use Jackett so that was neat.
Piracy is so widespread in public universities here that nobody thinks about it as being wrong.
That’s interesting to me. So it has spread towards the public institution level, where many or most people think it’s just normal.
It’s literally the reason a lot of us in south America can scape poverty.
Probably one of the biggest examples of justified piracy. I’m not sure if it’s fully justifiable, but it is really hard to deny its benefits. One thing though, piracy as a means may be justified, but I’m unsure if it’s for the ends.
Out of curiosity, what is your field of work?
Of course it’s justified. If anything, your faculty should have provided the software for free!
I used to manage site licenses for a large university and these software companies really rake you over the coals. For example, Adobe and MatLab wouldn’t license software for just lab computers or to a subset of the student population. They required we purchase total headcount licenses that covered everyone at the institution. In the case of MatLab you also pick out about a dozen of the toolbox add-ons, so it becomes a difficult task of getting the faculty to rank sort all of the packages.
We ultimately ended up purchasing the licenses for the institution but I can understand an institution saying they can’t afford it and passing it on to the students in the classes that need it.
I think Python has killed the main use case of MATLAB already. Schools should not be teaching MATLAB.
Hard disagree. Nothing comes close to MATLAB + Simulink. Nothing is even trying to cover the same usages.
I’m not sure about that since I’m not in any field that requires MATLAB at the moment. However, my specific case is for undergraduate introductory courses, and perhaps even at schools. To go even beyond this conversation a bit, any numerical / computational / algorithmic principles should probably be taught using Python. I had another numerical methods course where students can use any language they want, either C or C++ or Python. So I know it’s possible.
No question, matlab isn’t making their money off students, they make money when your work has to buy you a license, where it costs $1k a head
It’s $1K per head?
Yeah, $940 for a standard license (per year) https://www.mathworks.com/pricing-licensing.html
Yep. A commercial license is $940 a year, and as far as I understand you need a separate license for each person using it.
…per year?
We used Matlab back where I studied and the faculty did provide the software for free through a central license server. Since internet wasn’t as prevalent and stable back then, a good chunk of students did pirate it anyway… so there’s that…
I’ve been using and continue to use SciLab and Octave privately and even at my job. It’s great for calculations, simulations and for data analysis, if you’re not doing it in dedicated tools and don’t require a neatly designed graphic interface. Where we ran into trouble was with toolboxes, hardware integration (HiL) and safety. For a business it doesn’t make sense to spend all those resources (the workers’ time and skill) to build all those tools etc. when Mathworks already does it and you’ll always be trailing them. Also as soon as you try for ‘safe’ software and are restricted to specific hardware (which is being developed and updated regularly itself), the whole process becomes way too cumbersome, while Matlab has specific toolboxes for specific hardware. And as a last point: Matlab has made alot of progress in terms of the interface and automation in the last few years, so more people can easily use it.
So there are differences but it really depends on the specific circumstances, whether they merit the price.
It’s probably the main reason why I think most open-source software will never be able to replace their proprietary counterpart: the fact that proprietary software are typically developed for either massive or highly niche industries, and so they are funded and are basically now integrated inside the ecosystem of such industries. As people use it more and more, Mathworks will develop more toolboxes with hardware integration, until it basically becomes the de facto software for that purpose (e.g. computation). I’m all for open-source software, but I don’t see a way out of it. Big companies with mega budgets can always improve their software, far outpacing any alternative open-source projects.
I don’t use MATLAB nor GNU Octave for my work, but I imagine that the hardware that I’ll operate on probably require MATLAB, and so there’s no incentive for me to use GNU Octave, especially if it has poor hardware support or lack of toolboxes or whatever such issues. This is a natural consequence of open-source alternatives being built from scratch typically with volunteers. That’s insane to me that GNU Octave is still somewhat usable for some basic computational work.
Thanks for your story. I used both MATLAB and Octave, and while the language syntax is the same and most of the built in functions and basic toolbox functions are similar, Octave come short as soon as you start using graphics and more advanced toolboxes.
Can you elaborate? I looked at https://wiki.octave.org/Differences_between_Octave_and_Matlab and most stuff seemed minor.
Not the op, but syntactly they are ver similar. And so for minor things like looping over a matrix or making a plot or some calculations, It’ll be the same. Your intro numerical course will not really know the difference. It’s when you get to the packages that there’s massive divergence. Matlab really sells packages that have all sorts of libraries and gui things built in to do some advanced calculations or pre-Canned tool. They also change the package syntax from time to time. For things like signal processing or filter design, the tools reign and most scripts depend on them. Octave has a totally difference package ecosystem and syntax for loading packages.
So for basic things, you can go between the two fairly easily. For anything advanced or for 90% of scripts you download from papers, octave will not work.
Yeah, I imagine this’d be the case. Especially since MATLAB is designed for heavyweight computation in engineering industries, not merely simple looping or graphs. I’ll be honest and say that I neither use MATLAB nor GNU Octave since my work does not require it; I was just recalling a particular story during my student days that I thought would be interesting to share. For such heavy, niche and always evolving set of toolboxes and libraries, we can reasonable expect no open-source alternative will be able to “replace” MATLAB in any meaningful sense, it’s just too powerful and big.
I’m mostly okay with that though. These sorts of work are done in institutions or industries that can and should be able to afford them. It’s the reason why I don’t reasonably expect GIMP to overthrow Photoshop or Kdenlive/Openshot/Shotcut to overthrow Premiere Pro, unless somehow massive funds are channeled to their development. Rare cases like Linux or Blender or Firefox do happen, but they have massive backings.
You’re welcome!
I’d imagine that for some high-level computational work, GNU Octave may not fare that well. For an introductory computational course, I think it’s more than enough, probably? It reminds me of many other open-source projects - they may not be up to par when it comes to their proprietary counterpart.
Piracy is always justified
What do you say to people that maintains the POV that it’s theft?
Theft is always justified, then, clearly!
I call them a cuck and walk away
The biggest downside I’ve seen with gnu octave is the exact same code will execute much slower
I’ve seen people mention this before. This will be troublesome if you require massive computing speed, otherwise it is still acceptable, since you’re basically using a MATLAB clone.
I graduated from my STEM Course on Feb this year. In my 4.5-year course there are total of 5 classes in which we must use MATLAB. But all of my professors agreed to let student use alternative, such as Octave and Python. I remembered vividly one of my classmate who got highest scores somehow use Python and draw a chart that’s even more beautiful and easy to read than most of MATLAB users.
4 of my professors encouraged us just pirate MATLAB. One even gave us his pirate version that he saved in Google Drive.
So it can be done, simple as that.
It’s morally grey, but I would’ve done the same. The important part is learning to code, not the language.
Yeah, then other languages should be allowed as well.
Well, you were definitely way smarter than me, since I tried to do exactly the same thing two years ago but I couldn’t make for the life of me GNU Octave to behave anywhere similar to Matlab, so instead I created a virtual machine.
Congratulations, my friend!
Well, one context that I left out was that the course was pretty simple. We learned some basic loops, graphing, matrix operations, and writing some basic scripts to solve some problems. If you need a higher level functionality, then you’d probably struggle with GNU Octave, I don’t know.
