I assume the title is correct, but could you link to the original De Telegraaf article? Thanks.
Anyway, fascism is never ok, but Ukraine having a huge nazi problem is Russian propaganda. IRC fascists gained 2% in the last election. Azov has neo-nazi roots, that’s not ok, but has in large part been denazified. Many of the original members are dead.
The far right in Ukraine is far smaller than in neighbouring countries, including Russia. For example, here’s a few pictures of a Russian nationalist march:
Meanwhile Russia has been supporting the far-right across Europe and in the US. For example:
But this isn’t just real-politik or pragmatism. For example, Putin had Ivan Ilyin reburied in Russia. He has often quoted him and admires him. Ivan Ilyin was a self-avowed fascist, openly admired Mussolini and Hitler, and a virulent anti-communist. Russia is run by an elite who to be generous deeply admire fascism, co-operate with fascists, and who in all likelihood are fascists.
Another example, Dmitry Utkin, the co-founder of the Wagner group. Note the tattoos.
For example, here’s a few pictures of a Russian nationalist march:
Not discussing all other points of the comment, but quick Google search is enough to find out that these photos were taken on November 4, 2013. To better understand their significance as an argument, it’s worth adding that Viktor Yanukovych was the president of Ukraine on that day.
The low number of openly fascist parliamentarians in Ukraine is often explained by the crypto-fascist stances of other political parties: glorification of past fascists, racism, ultranationalism, xenophobia…
And yes, Russia has a fascist problem, like most other European countries, and, as in Ukraine, the limited presence of fascists in parliament can be explained in the same way.
The low number of openly fascist parliamentarians in Ukraine is often explained by the crypto-fascist stances of other political parties: glorification of past fascists, racism, ultranationalism, xenophobia…
And Lavrov says Zelensky is a pure Nazi, despite the former being a Jew. Should we believe him?
Or should we take Russian narratives about Ukraine being full of Nazis with a pinch of salt?
I would argue that everything and everyone is doing propaganda, is it not more interesting to know where it comes from and why it says that rather then discard the whole thing?
And I agree that everywhere there is a rise in fascism (that’s why we should talk about it!) but where I don’t agree is supporting a country with explicit nazi symbology inside the military, especially if we want to regard them as “heroes” in the future. Supporting war is serious thing.
This topic should be very important to ukrainians too no?
The article you paints a much more nuanced picture:
De commandant die hem ontving, verzekerde hem dat dat allemaal verleden tijd was. ’Dit is niet het Azov van vroeger’, werd hem verteld. ’Azov is hervormd, gezuiverd, en opnieuw opgebouwd.’
Translation: the commander who welcomes him(Hendrik) says Azov is not what it used to be, has been reformed, purified, and rebuilt. He mentions seeing nazi symbols in an office though.
Een paar andere buitenlandse jongens waren ook weg, ze hadden teams gezien waar elke morgen de nazigroet werd gebracht.”
Translation: other foreign soldiers also wanted to leave, some had even seen teams where everyone did the Nazi salute in the morning. Ie. he didn’t actually see the Nazi salutes himself. which indicates is indeed less common than the title and you suggest.
„We willen voorkomen dat de oorlog doorslaat naar Europa. Als we daar stoppen, dan verslechteren onze eigen kansen.”
Closing words from soldier in question: we want to prevent the war spreading to Europe. Als we stop supporting Ukraine, our own chances worsen."
This topic should be very important to ukrainians too no?
Why is Russia being a fascist state not an important topic for you?
Why would we not want to stop a fascist state in Ukraine, before it continues into Europe, and continues to fund the far right globally?
Why are you parrotting Russian propaganda about Ukraine which suggests Ukraine has a larger fascist problem than it does?
These are rhetorical questions. No need to answer.
The OP frequents tankie communities where the likes of Stalin, Assad, and sometimes Putin are praised all the time. Whether deliberately or not, they fail to grasp the most basic concept of fascism or the adjacent totalitarianism, where the part “total” is crucial in understanding that it’s all about power before ideology. Someone like Putin may not raise his hand in the Hitler salute, but his track record of killings, human rights abuses and warmongering makes the occasional Nazi sympathizers in the Ukrainian army look like child’s play in comparison.
As you note earlier, far-right ideas are unpopular in Ukraine, and funnily enough, the same far-right groups and individuals, demonized by Russia and tankies who often cite the likes of Sputnik, actually have a solid track record of supporting pro-democracy causes like Euromaidan, if not defending Ukraine from Russian imperialism. On the latter, the regular people in Ukraine don’t care about the tattoos, patches, daily rituals or even the political ideas of someone who’s there to help them evacuate after long weeks of being shelled by Russia and living with no heat, electricity, or running water. Heroism is defined by actions, not by ideas.
Chair, today the United States expresses opposition to this resolution, a document most notable for its thinly veiled attempts to legitimize longstanding Russian disinformation narratives smearing neighboring nations under the cynical guise of halting Nazi glorification.
If Russia actually cared about fighting Nazi ideology then Aleksandr Dugin’s ideas wouldn’t be so popular in the Kremlin.
I don’t know rick, the United States seems pretty nazi to me. Ukraine could have just hidden behind the abstention (like all the other pseudo-fascists cowards) and the motion would have not passed anyway. But they choose to vote against the glorification of nazism.
Yes, because as I just pointed out, they’re flatly rejecting a disinformation narrative that was in service of eroding their national sovereignty. Given this vote preceded their being invaded (again) by Russia, I can understand it. And again, Russia isn’t interested in eliminating far right ultranationalist sentiment; the call is coming from inside the house.
I assume the title is correct, but could you link to the original De Telegraaf article? Thanks.
Anyway, fascism is never ok, but Ukraine having a huge nazi problem is Russian propaganda. IRC fascists gained 2% in the last election. Azov has neo-nazi roots, that’s not ok, but has in large part been denazified. Many of the original members are dead.
The far right in Ukraine is far smaller than in neighbouring countries, including Russia. For example, here’s a few pictures of a Russian nationalist march:
Meanwhile Russia has been supporting the far-right across Europe and in the US. For example:
But this isn’t just real-politik or pragmatism. For example, Putin had Ivan Ilyin reburied in Russia. He has often quoted him and admires him. Ivan Ilyin was a self-avowed fascist, openly admired Mussolini and Hitler, and a virulent anti-communist. Russia is run by an elite who to be generous deeply admire fascism, co-operate with fascists, and who in all likelihood are fascists.
Another example, Dmitry Utkin, the co-founder of the Wagner group. Note the tattoos.
Not discussing all other points of the comment, but quick Google search is enough to find out that these photos were taken on November 4, 2013. To better understand their significance as an argument, it’s worth adding that Viktor Yanukovych was the president of Ukraine on that day.
The low number of openly fascist parliamentarians in Ukraine is often explained by the crypto-fascist stances of other political parties: glorification of past fascists, racism, ultranationalism, xenophobia…
And yes, Russia has a fascist problem, like most other European countries, and, as in Ukraine, the limited presence of fascists in parliament can be explained in the same way.
And Lavrov says Zelensky is a pure Nazi, despite the former being a Jew. Should we believe him?
Or should we take Russian narratives about Ukraine being full of Nazis with a pinch of salt?
It’s not (only) a Russian narrative, is a narrative shared by a lot of journalists specialized in fascism.
That depends on which journalists you follow.
Article
I would argue that everything and everyone is doing propaganda, is it not more interesting to know where it comes from and why it says that rather then discard the whole thing?
And I agree that everywhere there is a rise in fascism (that’s why we should talk about it!) but where I don’t agree is supporting a country with explicit nazi symbology inside the military, especially if we want to regard them as “heroes” in the future. Supporting war is serious thing.
This topic should be very important to ukrainians too no?
The article you paints a much more nuanced picture:
Translation: the commander who welcomes him(Hendrik) says Azov is not what it used to be, has been reformed, purified, and rebuilt. He mentions seeing nazi symbols in an office though.
Translation: other foreign soldiers also wanted to leave, some had even seen teams where everyone did the Nazi salute in the morning. Ie. he didn’t actually see the Nazi salutes himself. which indicates is indeed less common than the title and you suggest.
Closing words from soldier in question: we want to prevent the war spreading to Europe. Als we stop supporting Ukraine, our own chances worsen."
Why is Russia being a fascist state not an important topic for you?
Why would we not want to stop a fascist state in Ukraine, before it continues into Europe, and continues to fund the far right globally?
Why are you parrotting Russian propaganda about Ukraine which suggests Ukraine has a larger fascist problem than it does?
These are rhetorical questions. No need to answer.
The OP frequents tankie communities where the likes of Stalin, Assad, and sometimes Putin are praised all the time. Whether deliberately or not, they fail to grasp the most basic concept of fascism or the adjacent totalitarianism, where the part “total” is crucial in understanding that it’s all about power before ideology. Someone like Putin may not raise his hand in the Hitler salute, but his track record of killings, human rights abuses and warmongering makes the occasional Nazi sympathizers in the Ukrainian army look like child’s play in comparison.
As you note earlier, far-right ideas are unpopular in Ukraine, and funnily enough, the same far-right groups and individuals, demonized by Russia and tankies who often cite the likes of Sputnik, actually have a solid track record of supporting pro-democracy causes like Euromaidan, if not defending Ukraine from Russian imperialism. On the latter, the regular people in Ukraine don’t care about the tattoos, patches, daily rituals or even the political ideas of someone who’s there to help them evacuate after long weeks of being shelled by Russia and living with no heat, electricity, or running water. Heroism is defined by actions, not by ideas.
Edit: Grammar
If they don’t care, it should not be so unpopular, then.
I would describe it as “very concerning” rather than “nuanced”.
And I do believe the problem is bigger than many people are willing to admit. It’s worth discussing properly to me.
Here’s the US justification for the No vote.
If Russia actually cared about fighting Nazi ideology then Aleksandr Dugin’s ideas wouldn’t be so popular in the Kremlin.
I don’t know rick, the United States seems pretty nazi to me. Ukraine could have just hidden behind the abstention (like all the other pseudo-fascists cowards) and the motion would have not passed anyway. But they choose to vote against the glorification of nazism.
Yes, because as I just pointed out, they’re flatly rejecting a disinformation narrative that was in service of eroding their national sovereignty. Given this vote preceded their being invaded (again) by Russia, I can understand it. And again, Russia isn’t interested in eliminating far right ultranationalist sentiment; the call is coming from inside the house.